How Art is Born Season 3

Episode 1

TRANSCRIPTION

R. Alan Brooks
Hey! I’m R. Alan Brooks, this is

Dele Johnson
I’m Dele Johnson. And I’m Editor, Producer of How Art is Born, and you know Alan as the host.

R. Alan Brooks
Yea so you see more of me but Dele makes all the cool stuff happen behind the scenes. So we had a cool conversation with Kaneem. Uh I gotta say, there was a lot of uh, we got to talk a lot about identity.

Dele Johnson
Yea

R. Alan Brooks
And uh, how art can be a way to find your identity, and strengthen your identity, and uh, you know when people actually get to listen to it. I just think you’re gonna hear a lot of those cool themes

Dele Johnson
Yea, and I think it was cool that you all had a chance to connect on like growing up in the South.

R. Alan Brooks
Yea

Dele Johnson
You both had similar experiences in different regions of the South

R. Alan Brooks
Right

Dele Johnson
Which I thought was really interesting to see, uh, that part of the conversation develop.

R. Alan Brooks
Yea and specifically, uh, being Southern but not fitting in with Southern paradigms

Dele Johnson
Yea

R. Alan Brooks
And trying to find your way as a human being, and then secondarily as an artist. So yea I’m really proud of how that conversation came out and I feel like uh, I feel like I got a lot out of it. 

Dele Johnson
Yea. Yea. That was cool. This is our premiere for Season 3

R. Alan Brooks
Yes!

Dele Johnson
Artist Kaneem Smith, so let’s get into it. 

R. Alan Brooks
Alright, you guys check it out. 

R. Alan Brooks:
Welcome to How Art Is Born, a podcast from the Museum of Contemporary Art Denver, about the origins of artists and their creative and artistic practices. I'm your host, art Alan Brooks, artist, writer, and professor. Today I'm joined by Houston-based, visual artist and educator, Kaneem Smith. Say hello.

Kaneem Smith:
Hello,

R. Alan Brooks:
<laugh>. So, uh, to start us off, can you tell us a little bit about who you are, what you do?

Kaneem Smith:
My name is Kaneem Smith. I am, uh, I could, I call myself like a mixed media visual artist, uh, meeting. I work in multiple, um, I work with, I work with a multitude of different materials. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, I guess for years I called myself just a sculptor, but then I started diving into other areas, uh, my artistic practice. And so that's why I, now, now I'm saying mixed Mia, not necessarily multimedia with, um, technology per se, but different materials and ways of working, ways of being creative.

R. Alan Brooks:
Okay. So, one of my, my first sort of significant connections with black sculpture was Thomas Blackshear. Uh, yeah. Yeah. And, uh, so that really kind of stood out to me a lot of time. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, cuz I would just see 'em all the time. And I was like, these are dope, you know? Yeah. Uh, what, what, uh, cause it sounded like you started with sculpture and then moved into mixed media.

Kaneem Smith:
Yeah, I think, um, I guess what I mean by that is that it was primarily just working, um, three dimensionally with, uh, materials, uh, such as wax mm-hmm. <affirmative> and clay and wood. And even like, working with, uh, doing a little bit of metalworking, but just, it was always, uh, three dimensionally. Because now I'm, I'm doing things that are more, um, that are more wall based, or even, even if they're su or suspended works at, maybe they're not attached to the wall, they're flatter, they're, uh, they're not necessarily, uh, they're more relief based, I should say. They're more of a relief piece. They're, they're more dimensional. They, huh. Uh, they pop out from a, from a flat surface, but they're not necessarily, uh, can be seen from all sides or Yeah. Huh. Can be appreciated from all sides. Okay. If that makes sense.

R. Alan Brooks:
Yeah. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. All right. Well, okay. So let's rewind, get deep into like what this stuff means to you. So, I, I often start by asking people, um, what was the first time that you remember art having a substantial effect on you, or meaning or anything like that?

Kaneem Smith:
Wow.

R. Alan Brooks:
Um, but some people, it's so ingrained in their lives that they can't identify it first time. Has it like always been with you, or do you have like a moment?

Kaneem Smith:
Um, I'm gonna say it's always been with me. My, my, my father, um, he's well retired now, but he, he's, he is a sculptor. He's an artist himself. Okay. And I, he's definitely a great influence on, you know, I guess the, the path I took in life. But, um, I guess what I'm, so what I'm saying is that when I, uh, when, when I say that I've, it's all, it's ingrained in me. It's, I've been, um, I think I was like six or seven years actually, we moved to Texas when I was seven. Okay. So I started taking art classes at this, uh, at what's called, uh, the Glasgow Glassell School of Art that's, uh, affiliated with the Museum of Fine Arts Houston. They have classes for, uh, for children mm-hmm. <affirmative> and adults. And I started, uh, my father put my brother and I in, um, some, some ceramic classes, some, some classes where we could, uh, you know, classes for children, basically working with different materials

R. Alan Brooks:
Around how old and just would you--

Kaneem Smith:
I was around seven, eight years old. Okay. And, um, just, and it wasn't like I, I knew that's what I wanted to do right then and there, but I, I knew, I felt like that was a way to express myself because I was a pretty, uh, you know, I was more, I'm definitely, I'm definitely, um, I'm definitely more of a shy, or, uh, should I say more, uh, introspective person mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I think being creative or doing creative things or making things with my hands really helped me sort of open up, made me, uh, it bec it, uh, helped me become more social and more, um, and a bit more confident just growing out into the world. Hmm. Growing up, even though I had all kinds of things happened to me when I was growing up, but, um, I felt like that was something that I had because, um, uh, coming from, having been born in Buffalo, New York mm-hmm. <affirmative> moving to Houston, Texas as a child, uh, like I said, I was around seven, eight years old. Hmm. Uh, being teased because you sound white or you sound different, um,

R. Alan Brooks:
You didn't, definitely

Kaneem Smith:
Didn't sound, and I didn't understand that

R. Alan Brooks:
You definitely didn't sound Texan. Right,

Kaneem Smith:
Right. So coming out of that mm-hmm. <affirmative>, like, I wasn't black enough. I wasn't this enough, I wasn't. Mm-hmm. So you're, uh, so coming into that and growing up with that and trying to find my way Yeah. Being creative, uh, was like, my outlet was like, uh huh. My safe space, you know?

R. Alan Brooks:
Huh. Yeah. That's cool. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Okay. Well, so, uh, before we start recording, we talked about, um, you being born in Buffalo. Yeah. Me being born in Ithaca, New York. Yes. Yeah. Um, and the way things happened for me is I moved, my parents moved down to Asheville, North Carolina, um, like when I was one. Wow. But we moved to Atlanta when I was eight, which is where my mother grew up. So like, all her family was there mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so there was some of that same stuff, you know, like, you don't talk about us, you know, that kind of stuff. Yeah.

Kaneem Smith:
And the funny thing is, is when you go to, I mean, this is, and this is, uh, purely my opinion, purely my perspective, my, um, the east that, uh, you know, up upstate New York mm-hmm. <affirmative> quote unquote, um, a lot of people sound like me, you know? Uh, and, uh, you know, a lot, a lot of people of color, people such as myself, they, I, I felt like they, I felt like it felt normal. I felt like I was here, I could hear myself speaking in other people, so it didn't, so I didn't see, I didn't understand what was wrong was the way I was speaking. Yeah. So, yeah. But anyway,

R. Alan Brooks:
Because when you show up different, you know? Yeah. And, you know, I mean, uh, I don't know, like So you spent your teenage years definitely in Texas.

Kaneem Smith:
Absolutely.

R. Alan Brooks:
Yeah. So, I mean, I found, um, rapping and stuff like that, like, you know, the more I was there, like either some of my accent became a little more like that, but it, that certainly just felt like the way people talked, even if I ain't talk like that, you know? Right. Yes. How we finna get this thing going, like that kind of thing. Oh

Kaneem Smith:
My goodness. Yes. <laugh> Yes, yes, yes. <laugh>. That's, yeah. That's, that's interesting. Um, uh, and I have the pleasure of being here in Denver today. Yeah. Um, uh, in relation to the Dirty South exhibition. And I have to say that I, I mean, I'm, I'm honored to be part of the show, and I, although I, my dialect or my maybe, uh, my background with my parents, my parental background was definitely Southern mm-hmm. <affirmative>, South Carolina, my father's side, like, I've gotta say South Carolina, Barbados, Virginia, and then my mother, North Carolina. Um, so the south is in me.

R. Alan Brooks:
Right.

Kaneem Smith:
But, but my dad got a job teaching University of Buffalo and Right. So, yeah.

R. Alan Brooks:
That's the thing, right. It's in your soul, you know, so like, it doesn't,

Kaneem Smith:
It's born out there.

R. Alan Brooks:
Right. You know, like, we don't, we don't have to rock a grill mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know what I mean? Like, it's with you, it's part of who you are.

Kaneem Smith:
<laugh>, thank you. Yes. <laugh>. Agreed. Yeah.

R. Alan Brooks:
Okay. So you were making art at seven? Um,

Kaneem Smith:
But--Well, I, I don't know if I'd call it making art, but I was, I was, I was making things and, um, I don't think my, my parents held on to maybe, but they held on a lot of my drawings and things that I did when I was much younger when I was around age a little older. But, um, I don't, I don't know if I was calling it art, but I definitely, I definitely loved what I was doing. I was, uh, I was enamored by it. I was definitely enamored by what my father was doing. Oh. Working, you know, completely different. He, he worked in welded steel. Yeah. Uh, he draws, he works with oil stick, uh, or graphite or charcoal, and the, and he's, and his, he's much more abstract. But, um, like my father definitely an artist for sure. He was making artwork. And me, I was just, I wasn't, I don't consider my, what I was doing playing, but I was definitely, I don't know what, I don't know how to express.

R. Alan Brooks:
Well, you described it though. You described it as an escape.

Kaneem Smith:
Definitely an escape

R. Alan Brooks:
From a, like the rejection of people, you know? Oh,

Kaneem Smith:
Oh my goodness.

R. Alan Brooks:
Weren't black enough or whatever.

Kaneem Smith:
Yes, yes, yes. Yeah.

R. Alan Brooks:
So you found some, like, so some healing in it.

Kaneem Smith:
Absolutely. And, uh, because I, you know, you know lot, you know, being a, being a child that was, was, that was bullied to some extent as a young person. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, one of the things that sort of saved me was that, uh, the drawings I would make for people <laugh>. Huh. This, instead of, you know, hopefully not being bullied or beat up that time, I, I was able to, um, <laugh> make a, you know, they said, well, draw me something or make me something. And I would, that would be my way of getting out of that

R. Alan Brooks:
Right.

Kaneem Smith:
Out of, you know,

R. Alan Brooks:
yeah.

Kaneem Smith:
Being, uh, you know,

R. Alan Brooks:
That was your currency.

Kaneem Smith:
Right. Exactly. Getting out of that situation or

R. Alan Brooks:
Okay.

Kaneem Smith:
Getting excused from being taunted that day.

R. Alan Brooks:
Well, so it seems early on that art for you was, um, cathartic, right? It was something

Kaneem Smith:
absolutely

R. Alan Brooks:
healing for you.

Kaneem Smith:
Absolutely.

R. Alan Brooks:
Uh, is it, is it still that for you?

Kaneem Smith:
Absolutely.

R. Alan Brooks:
Yeah. Um, so like, there's a, there's a, in all these conversations with artists mm-hmm. <affirmative>, that talk about how some people do art to heal themselves. Some people do art to heal the world. Some people do it for both. Um, how is it for you, like, is is it still mostly for you, or are you trying to say something to the world with the art that you create?

Kaneem Smith:
Wow, That's powerful.

R. Alan Brooks:
Hmm.

Kaneem Smith:
It's, it's most definitely for me, but it's not, it's not selfishly for me, it's, um, hmm. It's not selfishly for me, but it's, um, so I'm, I'm going to say heal. I, I would love that if my work healed the world, <laugh>, if what or what I was doing or what I was putting out there was very healing. And it is, and it is. I noticed that, um, I, I get moved when people are moved by the things that I've made or things I present um, in an exhibition or a gallery or, or in a project. Um, so I'm not just making it for myself, um, but I'm making it representing myself and also representing who I am as, uh, as a black American, as a woman. Uh, I like the term, and this is, you know, called me old school, but I like the term I've been hearing lately called FBA, Foundational Black American. I love that. Okay. So, I, I would like to, I, I would like to adopt that for myself, <laugh>.

R. Alan Brooks:
Right on.

Kaneem Smith:
Um, you know, uh, as, as I can imagine you and other people, because, you know, there's, we're, we're, um, we're definitely black people, but we're a mixture of so many things.

R. Alan Brooks:
Yeah. Yeah.

Kaneem Smith:
And all of that's innocent. Um, but I make my work for myself, but also, but, but more importantly, I make make it for, uh, to connect, connect with people to, to, um, Hmm. That's a good, good question

R. Alan Brooks:
That's a good answer so far

Kaneem Smith:
To connect with people, but also to, um, I guess to invite, invite people to, uh, I want, I want, um, I want people to be drawn or invited to, or feel invited to what I'm presenting and relate to it in some way. It's like something that I'm sharing, I'm sharing myself withtThe audience or with whomever.

R. Alan Brooks:
Yeah. I love that.

Kaneem Smith:
Seeing the work. Yeah.

R. Alan Brooks:
That was, that was such a good answer. Seriously. Yeah.

Kaneem Smith:
Thank you.

R. Alan Brooks:
Yeah. Okay. Well, so, you know, there's so much about the, the journey of art, right? Okay, so, um, when you, you said that when you were, um, sort of creating things at a young age, you weren't calling it art yet. So at what point did you decide that you wanted to be a quote unquote artist?

Kaneem Smith:
I'm going to say, um, I'm definitely gonna say may, uh, maybe it's cliche to say this, but like, high for me, definitely high school.

R. Alan Brooks:
Okay.

Kaneem Smith:
Um, I was, um, I, well, I could tell myself, we've been to the state. I felt lucky enough to have been part of, uh, be being an alum of an amazing school, uh, Houston, the Houston, uh, high school for performing a visual arts hs, HSPA.

R. Alan Brooks:
Okay.

Kaneem Smith:
The performing arts high school in Houston, Texas. And, um, I, cuz I thought, I thought what I was doing was pretty badass, but until I got there, huh. I saw everyone else around me was badass <laugh>. So I felt like, oh, okay. It humbled me, but I, I felt, I definitely felt more accepted. But did I, but I'm, I, but I'm not looking to be accepted to assimilate. To wanting to be someone else or, or, or doing something else. But I definitely felt like what I was doing was legitimate or, uh, and people liked it enough where it was something that I felt like I could do and do well.

R. Alan Brooks:
Hmm. Okay. So, uh, being in that community with other artists, that was kind of that transformation for you, where you were like

Kaneem Smith:
Yeah. And having, um, and having teachers that, um, not all of them, but most of them encouraging, um, the visual arts teachers that I had um, told, you know, not that they, they didn't just, and they didn't even necessarily tell me I had talent, but they liked what I was doing, creatively, they liked my ideas, they encouraged me to continue to build on those ideas.

R. Alan Brooks:
Oh that's cool. Yeah. Well, I laugh when you said not all of them cuz uh, my art teacher used to shit on the fact that I like comic books like all the time.

Kaneem Smith:
Oh my gosh. I rarely made an A in my art classes. And, um, I was, and I was really troubled by that. But, uh, years later, as an adult, I came to realize that that was probably one of the best parts of my education, because when you're getting a B or or a C on a, on a, on a project just made me work harder towards getting that A. It made me, it made me work harder. Because if you're just giving you, you're just, if you're just giving someone high marks or high praise on a, on something they've created. They're gonna, that's, it levels it kind of, it, it would kind of level me out and feel like, okay, this is all I need to do. I don't have to work towards getting better or developing my skills any further than this.

R. Alan Brooks:
Were you, uh, working mostly with clay in high school? Or was it like drawing, sculpture, painting?

Kaneem Smith:
I was doing mostly, mostly mostly sculpture. But, um, in high school we, we also had, uh, painting classes. Design, um, drawing obviously. Um, and I guess the last two years, even the last year of high school was where we were able to really focus in or, or hone in on one or two things. And for me, it was definitely, um, uh, working three dimensionally and my artistic process now was definitely not what I was doing in high school. I really didn't start working with fiber the way that I work with it now. Or fiber-based media until I got to college.

R. Alan Brooks:
Okay. Okay. So back then in the high school classes where you focused on, uh, three-dimensional. Was it, uh, were you doing abstract sculpture or like literal?

Kaneem Smith:
That's an excellent question. I, uh, and I, and thank, thank thankfully be because of my parents. Hold me on to some of the things I did in high school. <laugh>. I was very figurative. I was, I was looking at, uh, not just, uh, uh, west African, figurative based and, and, uh, and slightly abstract, but representational, figurative art. I was also looking at, uh, Italian renaissance figurative art like Michelangelo. And, um, um, and I was, uh, so basically the human body, the human figure. Uh, was very appealing to me at the time. But once I got to college, I kind of, I be, I don't know, I just, not that I went far left from it, but I just kind of evolved from working representationally and just got a little more, it became more about material, um, in place of something representational that represents a person or a thing. Um,

R. Alan Brooks:
See, this is interesting to me because Okay. So anybody who's listening can Google your work and kind of see examples of things you've done.But I, I'm interested in what it, what it meant to you like to move from, uh, represe, representational sculpture uh, to a little more abstract stuff. Like what did the art mean to you in the creation of it? Were you trying to communicate something or was it just what it felt right to you, or,

Kaneem Smith:
Um, it felt, it felt right to me. It was something that I was interested in. And it had, and definitely what I was studying, what I was looking at, what I was reading, I spent a lot of time in, in the libraries, particularly in the art section of the library. But looking at art books, I was looking at, uh, Western, primarily like Western, uh, more abstract works. I was looking at artists whose works were, uh, figurative but weren't necessarily, uh, realistic or representational. It was like, it was like, I could, I could represent the body or represent the idea of the body or a person without actually, without it having to look like a person. Yeah. And therefore I was able to connect with people who weren't necessarily, you know, you know, black, like myself, people of other backgrounds um, because it was something that, I don't know why, but for some reason that always resonated with me to be able to connect
Or have the work to connect with people who of other ethnicities and other backgrounds and draw from it, um, their own experiences. Um, I don't, that always appealed to me. And I felt like when I got to college, I started, I was, I felt more comfortable doing that. And I like my first, my first, um, my first art, my first, uh, first day of art class freshman year, um, my sculpture, my, I was taking sculpture. I was very excited to take sculpture. I don't wanna say I had a, I had, I had a, I had a teacher who was an amazing artist, but wasn't necessarily an amazing teacher. Um, but like many artists, and I can even relate to this, um, having taught myself over the years, um, he himself as an amazing artist, but I think it was, I think it was more of a job for him rather than something he was passionate about.
Right. So our first assignment was to grab something in the room and make something with it. You know?

R. Alan Brooks:
That's cool.

Kaneem Smith:
And there was, there was like a bag of plaster here. There was some bags of clay. There was, uh, some wood just, uh, random wood, uh, wood blocks and, uh, shapes people could work with. There was, um, uh, what else? There was, uh, what else did we have? I wanna say, oh, wire, wire was a big deal. I was thinking about something. Metal. Metal. So malleable wire, there were things that we could do to manipulate and but, um, and I, I looked over and I saw what I was drawn to was a, was a roll of burlap in the corner of the classroom <laugh> And I just, I, I know it sounds random, but I just unraveled it and started cutting it up and just, uh, you know, clueing it back together or twisting it, Ty and just, just seeing what I could do with it, breaking it apart, having it unravel.
And I just started really falling in love with it. Huh. Uh, but burlap and burlap was something, burlap is something I use quite a bit in my work, my artistic practice now. But it is not an easy material to work with. And it sheds and but it's organic. It's, it's connected to the earth. I love the way it smelled. Um, also, it all, it had, it had a story behind it. It had a history behind it particularly, and especially the burlap that I work with now, because I like working with reclaimed coffee bags and potato sacks and things that, uh, were handmades. And to come from different parts of the world. And it just felt like all of it just, it just opened up a great deal for me. But as, but getting back to being a freshman and, and in that, in that classroom.
I started making shapes, just simple shapes, simple, uh, like canoe shapes and, and stitching those things. Like crudely stitching those things together. Because at that time I really, I was just playing. I really wasn't, uh, I knew that it was an assignment. We knew it was an assignment where we were gonna be graded on it. It was something introductory. We weren't, you know, it wasn't going to be, we're gonna be critiqued in such a way where it had to be perfect or it had to be, you know, one thing or another. It was like the beginning of the class to get us comfortable with the idea of working, experimenting with materials. But it's just something I fell in love with. I think that that high school and then, uh, undergraduate years of college is when I felt like this is what I really, yeah. Yeah.
This is what I really wanna do. Now my father who's, who's an artist himself, he super supportive, but at the same time, he was very frank with me that, you know, he says, well, is you sure this is what you wanna do? Hmm. Um, being, you know, being a woman, being being a black, uh, a black woman, it's not going to be easy for you. Are you sure this is what you wanna do? <affirmative>, and I don't know why I still carry that now, but that just, that just resonated with me. That--I mean, he was really right about that. <laugh>. It ain't easy. It wasn't

R. Alan Brooks:
It's not, yeah.

Kaneem Smith:
But I was, you know, just, I, I can imagine, you know, you're being a creative artist and musician, it's, there's something inside. You're just passionate. You're just in love. I mean, what can you do? It's part of you. You know?

R. Alan Brooks:
Hmm. It's a whole journey

Kaneem Smith:
And I knew it was going to be a struggle. And it has been. It hasn't been, yeah. It's definitely had its struggles for sure.

R. Alan Brooks:
That's the thing. I, you know, I figured out like, um, my parents were both very supportive of me being creative, but I think they also have a lot of fear around it. Cuz it made me stand out.

Kaneem Smith:
Oh, yeah.

R. Alan Brooks:
Uh, and I had a lot of struggle with that for myself in my twenties and teens. Um, but in more recent years, I come to understand that they grew up, they were both born within a few years of Emmett Till being lynched.

Kaneem Smith:
Wow.

R. Alan Brooks:
So they grew up in a reality of if you stood out as a black boy or as a black person, you know, you could be murdered. And so I think it was reasonable for them to be fearful about me standing out as an artist, even though it wasn't reasonable for my reality and how I was growing up. Based on what they had grown up in, that was a reasonable fear. And it's not to say that like all of that danger is completely gone mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Uh, but things have just shifted in a, in a different kind of way. Right. And so, um, when I look at our struggles about how long my hair was or how I dressed or things like that <affirmative>, when I look at that through that lens <affirmative>, I have a lot more compassionate view of it, you know?

Kaneem Smith:
Wow. No, that's powerful. I can relate to that for sure. <affirmative>, Um, that what, and what I'm, what I mean by that is I can relate to that. You have a much, a much more passionate view about it. That's the way I feel as well. <affirmative>, uh, for my, for my experience for sure. But that's powerful. Um, and I, you know what? That's interesting you said that, that Yeah. I can, I can imagine a parent being fearful. You know, you want, you want your children to be successful and safe and you know, and you want them to have the things you didn't have and for like, to be easy and great for them. And, uh, not to struggle, but, um, the Emmett Till I had, wow, that's powerful.

R. Alan Brooks:
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. It's a whole thing. You know, when you think about like, um, I, I love being black. I feel like it's such a, like a honor. It's a wonderful thing, but it's not my first thought about everything every day. Right. Like, I'm not waking up.

Kaneem Smith:
Me neither.

R. Alan Brooks:
Let me have my black day. Right. <laugh>. Um, so if, uh, what's compelling me inwardly is like, um, my desire to create, my desire to make something beautiful or, um, create something that comments on the world or whatever it is that pushes me forward. Like, that's not that, that comes from inside. It's not attached to oppression, racism, the structure of society <affirmative>. But then when you decide to live a life that's led by those things, it's affected by those outside things.

Kaneem Smith:
Absolutely. And it was for me as well, in ways I hadn't, I could, I hadn't, I never could have imagined. Um, oh, and also, you know, as I can imagine People a lot of people relate to parents telling you, how are you gonna make a living? How are you gonna support yourself doing that?

R. Alan Brooks:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's a real thing too. Uh, yeah. And also, you know, there's a, I mean, there's a way that, um, art and commerce, particularly in this country, seem to be so sort of inextricably bound, like <affirmative>, if your art is not making a lot of money <affirmative>, it doesn't have value <affirmative>, which I don't think is true. I think art has value just for itself. <affirmative>, and then business is a separate thing. Yeah. You know, like, oh, yeah. Creating art's one thing. Yeah. Selling it as a whole other thing. Yeah. And you have to decide whether you wanna sell it, whether you wanna make a living off of it. <affirmative>, and that's business. <affirmative>, you know, that's not the value of the art, but generally speaking, like if you tell somebody, Hey, I'm gonna go work on my art, they treat it like, uh, like you're playing, like you're not serious. Oh, yeah. But if you say, Hey, I'm going through my taxes, they leave you alone.

Kaneem Smith:
There you go. It's like people asking you what you do. <affirmative>, you tell 'em you're an artist, they go, well, no. Well, what do you really do <laugh>?

R. Alan Brooks:
Right.

Kaneem Smith:
What do you really do? That's, that's a hobby, that's not a job. You know? Yeah. You know, it's not a, it's not a for fashion. I mean, that's, yeah.

R. Alan Brooks:
It's such an interesting thing <affirmative>. It is. And so like, in order to be an artist and especially a black artist, you have to, uh, you have to be internally validated essentially.

Kaneem Smith:
Wow.

R. Alan Brooks:
And push forward with the vision of what you believe. And sometimes it's to your detriment, you know?

Kaneem Smith:
Yes.

R. Alan Brooks:
And then sometimes there's successes, you know, but I think, um, if you're evaluating honestly for yourself, even if it, even if there's a detriment <affirmative>, this is the life I wanted to lead. Yes. Then there's a lot more peace for it, you know?

Kaneem Smith:
Oh absolutely. Doesn't it feel gratifying when something is successful on your, on your terms?

R. Alan Brooks:
Yes.

Kaneem Smith:
You feel great. Yeah.

R. Alan Brooks:
Yeah. And all the times when I was younger and, uh, gave into great pressure to conform and try to be in those other worlds that were not on my terms. <affirmative>. I wasn't good at it, <affirmative>. Like, I'm not good at conforming. And, you know, I wished there were times that I wished that I was, you know?

Kaneem Smith:
You do?

R. Alan Brooks:
Uh, in the past, not so much now, but <laugh>. Yeah. But yeah, I used to wish, you know, like I, because like, uh, you know, I feel like I would just have what I thought was, uh, a normal conversation with somebody and they would walk away and, and be like, he is so controversial.

Kaneem Smith:
Oh right.

R. Alan Brooks:
You know, like that kinda stuff.

Kaneem Smith:
Right.

R. Alan Brooks:
And I'd be like, what? I didn't, what did I say? Like, you know, but I think it is just, uh, if you, and so I grew up ins Southern church, um, so that's like doubly confining, right?Because Southern is already confining and then.

Kaneem Smith:
it is

R. Alan Brooks:
Yeah. It's a southern black church. Right. And so, Uh, so that's like the double whammy. Yeah. So like me just expressing a simple idea mm-hmm. <affirmative> in that, in that world. Like, I remember, uh, I worked, okay, so my first job out of, uh, so I grew up in this church. When I joined it, it was like 30 people.

Kaneem Smith:
And this was in Atlanta?

R. Alan Brooks:
Yeah.

Kaneem Smith:
Okay.

R. Alan Brooks:
Uh, when I joined, it was like 30 people. And when I, um, by the time I got back from college, it was like 20,000.

Kaneem Smith:
Woooow.

R. Alan Brooks:
And they hired me to, to produce their TV broadcast. This is a Creflo Dollar. I don't know if you've heard.

Kaneem Smith:
Oh my God. That church.

R. Alan Brooks:
Yeah

Kaneem Smith:
Wow. Okay

R. Alan Brooks:
And so, uh, I was working there in my twenties and, uh, I had a boss who was, who had a whole meeting because I used the word archaic in a memo <laugh>. And, uh, I happened to walk in on it cuz it wasn't like in his office, it was in my office, office with the, cause I shared an office with, but they were having a whole meeting about cuz and I think maybe he had to look the word up or something like that. But like, they asked me to describe the way that they'd asked me to do research on the way that they do their radio broadcast <affirmative>. And I did, and I said, based on my research, the way we do it is archaic, you know? Um, and like, but he didn't have to call it archaic, you know, it's like a whole thing. And so this is like an, an example of where, um, I'm expressing a thought that I think is innocuous. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right? Like, I'm not trying to insult anybody.
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, like the word means what it means. Right. You know, and I was just using that word to describe, you know, uh, but it was like a whole thing. And this kind of stuff, this kind of thing used to happen to me constantly where like,

Kaneem Smith:
oh, wow,

R. Alan Brooks:
I'm just having what I think is a normal conversation on his face mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And then everybody walks away like, oh, he's different. He's weird. Like, what's he trying to say? You know? Like just a whole, there'll be a whole subtext that I didn't get.

Kaneem Smith:
Wow.

R. Alan Brooks:
You know? And so, uh, yeah, go ahead.

Kaneem Smith:
So when you walked in on, so what happened?

R. Alan Brooks:
Uh, well they, the, the people who were talking about it, they both were like, so why did you use this word? How was it? You know? And it was just like a whole thing. Like it wasn't

Kaneem Smith:
Oh, wow.

R. Alan Brooks:
You know, and, and I was like, wait, which, because I didn't even remember that I used the word mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, um, because, uh, old wouldn't have been sufficient in my mind cuz to say like, we do it in the old way. You know? Uh, I could have said outdated perhaps, I don't know, but who knows? You know?

Kaneem Smith:
Did they understand what it meant?

R. Alan Brooks:
Uh, I think that they looked it up. But the problem is that they couldn't have a straight conversation with me about it. Like, it wasn't like, like if I, if I would've asked, do you know, did you know what it meant? That would've been, that would've made it worse. <laugh>. Do you know what I'm saying? Especially if people were feeling like, uh, insecure about their intelligence or whatever, you know?

Kaneem Smith:
Right.

R. Alan Brooks:
But so yeah, it was just the whole thing and, and I found, um, that my, if my art isan extension of my truest self mm-hmm. <affirmative> and my truest self is being, um, confined mm-hmm. <affirmative> and sort of beat down by people's insecurities and fears, then I have to remove myself outta the environment so that I can be my fullest self and then create the art that is meaningful to me. And so, uh, that was, you know, kind of my journey. You look like you're having thoughts about it. Yeah? No? no.

Kaneem Smith:
Nope. <laugh>.

R. Alan Brooks:
All right. So for you in Texas, growing up there, and obviously you've traveled with your work and you've gone to school in different places and stuff like that mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, was it a journey for you to be able to find your most authentic voice in your art?

Kaneem Smith:
Absolutely. Um, and I'm gonna say finding my authentic voice through the material I was working with. Hmm. Or the materials I was working with. Um, because I guess because of, uh, I, I've got, I mean the, the, the group of peers I have in terms of artists Yea that I know of my generation, just amazing, amazing artists. And, um, I didn't, didn't know where I fit into that or what niche I had in that, or if I had one at all. And, um, I, I'm at a point now where I'm like, you know, if I'm in my own lane, I'm in my own lane. Um, and I'm much more at peace with it.

R. Alan Brooks:
Yeah.

Kaneem Smith:
Whereas before it was like, uh, you know, someone's organizing a group show of young black artists and they, you know, they bring, they, they invite certain artists or they select certain artists, and sometimes I'd be left out of that mm-hmm. <affirmative> and I would take it personally, but my work really just didn't fit in with the aesthetic of what sh--what show they were putting together or the concept they were working through or, Yeah.

R. Alan Brooks:
Right. Huh.

Kaneem Smith:
And yeah, I've always felt like the odd woman out here and there, but now I'm at a point where it's just like, yeah, I'm in my own lane.

R. Alan Brooks:
Nice. Yeah. We are here, we're doing it.

Kaneem Smith:
Absolutely.

R. Alan Brooks:
All right. So, um, switch gears. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, I'd like to bring this up a lot. Uh, most artists in their process deal with fear, um mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so I want to ask what it's like when it comes up and how do you get your, how do you find your way through it in order to complete things?

Kaneem Smith:
Wow. I have to, I have to either drown out or try to ignore that side of myself, that second guesses that says that, oh, maybe this isn't good enough, or it's not right, or maybe I shouldn't be doing this or that, or, um, or if I'm putting some, or I'm have an, I have an idea and I'm worried that it won't be understood or accepted or appreciated. Um, the, and I guess it's the fear of the fear of not making something good or powerful or, or something that people connect, can connect with mm-hmm. <affirmative> or, uh, would enjoy or appreciate. It's like, yeah. I mean, is it the fear of exceptions? I hate to say that I don't, when I say that, I'm not saying that I'm wanting to assimilate or be, you know, I want you to accept me. Um, but, um, the fear of success, the fear of the success of doing something creatively and having it come out right. Or having it come out successfully. The fear of that kind of success of the fear of failure. Failure as a visual artist, failure within my career, failure within myself, it's the fear of failure, visually, the, yeah.

R. Alan Brooks:
Yeah. Well, you know, I mean, on some level, uh, art is essentially presenting a piece of our soul to the world.

Kaneem Smith:
Yeah. Absolutely.

R. Alan Brooks:
You know, so like. However they react to it is going to be, you know, we, like, it's a tender thing. Right. So you can't afford this.

Kaneem Smith:
That's right. It's, yes, it's our baby. We're putting it out. Oops. We're putting it out there in the world. We're putting, we're putting our baby out there in the world.

R. Alan Brooks:
So your way of moving through it is just?

Kaneem Smith:
Wow. Um, um, the, my, my way of moving through it is stopping myself from procrastinating, from accomplishing it, or following through with an idea or a concept. Mm-hmm.

R. Alan Brooks:
<affirmative>.

Kaneem Smith:
Yeah. Yeah.

R. Alan Brooks:
You know, the more I had this conversation with people, like, people have all kinds of ways. Some people, uh, talk to other artists, friends mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, some artists just accept that it's part of the process of creating art. And when you put it in that context, it kind of has a little less bite to it.

Kaneem Smith:
That's well said. Yeah. It's the process.

R. Alan Brooks:
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. So it's always, it's always good to hear, you know, what different people's perspective is about it. All right. So what are you working on these days?

Kaneem Smith:
These days? I am working on, um, projects that are, that are going, that are public projects that are, um, whether it be a permanent, um, a permanent work of art or if it's, um, um, uh, something that I'm creating that's, um, that's temporary. Um, and, and also larger scale. But I guess I'm working, I guess I'm, yeah, I'm working on, I working on work that's public based. That's, that's out, that's outdoors. I'm working on taking my work from, it's sort of a sort of protected, um, because, because, you know, the materials I work with, one of, one of which is like, I work with cut raw cotton burlap. Things that if I put these things outside or present them outside the way I present them indoors.

R. Alan Brooks:
Right. They won't stand up.

Kaneem Smith:
Are they gonna get--Right. Will it stand up? Will it hold up? So that's what I'm working on right now. And I have, um, a project, um, that I'm excited about in Houston, Texas that I'm working on. I'm part of a, a group show experience that's going to be outdoors in the woods. And I'm creating an installation that's, uh, an ephemeral installation that's temporary, but, uh, it's going to be designed to, I'm gonna allow it to deteriorate. I'm gonna allow it to weather. To see what will happen. That sounds cool. And the people curating the show or organizing the show understand that. Yeah. And they're, and it's something that they invite, so. We'll see how it goes.

R. Alan Brooks:
<laugh>. That's interesting.

Kaneem Smith:
Yes.

R. Alan Brooks:
Okay. So if people want, uh, follow your stuff online, like kind of keep track of what you're doing mm-hmm. <affirmative>, where is the, where are the places?

Kaneem Smith:
Um, I am, um, I, thankfully because, and, and I have, um, I'm working with a gallery in Houston currently. Nicole, Nicole Longnecker Gallery, an unusual name, but, um, l o n g n e c k e r, Longnecker Gallery. Um, two, uh, two amazing people I'm working with, uh, two galleries I'm working with in Houston. And, um, oh, oh, and most importantly, I, I mentioned that because, so I have a web, my, my website is, it's, it is a work in progress, but it is up. I'd love for, uh, I invite people to check it out. It is www.kaneemsmithart.com. So that's k a n like Nancy, e e m, like mailbox smith all together. Smith Art kaneemsmithart.com. That's my website.

R. Alan Brooks:
Cool.

Kaneem Smith:
And I more than welcome people to check that out.

R. Alan Brooks:
Right on. All right. So I usually try to wrap up by asking people what's their geeky pleasure. So like, what kind of, uh, art have you been consuming? Books, movies, post, whatever it is, uh, that is sort of giving you life?

Kaneem Smith:
Oh wow. I guess what's given me life right now is, um, I'm excited. I'm excited about the things I'm working on within my studio practice mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and I'm excited about the music that I'm listening to that I enjoy that helps birth these, these, these ideas, these concepts of mine. I really, um, I like a lot of different artists. I like an eclectic mix of music, but I'm really loving, like, for example, one artist I really love Robert Glasper. He's is one of my favorite artists. He's just amazing. Um, him and, um, uh, uh, I like Brad Mehldau and mm-hmm. Um, I guess I'm gonna say Miles Davis. Right. And I know that sounds crazy as a woman saying I love Miles Davis, but <laugh>, I got that kind of from my father. And not because of Miles Davis, the man who he was. BecauseiIn his relationships and that sort of thing. But as a musician, as a musical genius, I just, it's like my dad is like the music, I'm, I'm, I guess I'm geeked out by the music my father enjoys or always enjoyed and would play at home or in a studio space. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> in his practice that I really didn't take much account accounting to a really, didn't really didn't allow it to absorb within myself, um, growing up. But I appreciate it now so many, so many years later. Because now I'm, it's like I get it now.

R. Alan Brooks:
Yeah. And it also gets to be a way you get connect and stuff like that.

Kaneem Smith:
Yeah absolutely.

R. Alan Brooks:
You get new dimensions to your relationship. One of my homeboys that I grew up with, uh, I was always trying to get him into, like, I would read a book and try to pass it to him and he would never read it. Like never.

Kaneem Smith:
Oh, ok.

R. Alan Brooks:
At this age, he started listening to audio books and he's just like consuming 'em. He's like, yo. And so I'm like giving him books and he's just like knocking 'em out and he's like, yo, why you tell me all this stuff was in books, man, you know, <laugh>

Kaneem Smith:
Well you tried to. Yeah. That's awesome.

R. Alan Brooks:
It's dope. Cause we've been friends for like three decades and now we have a new dimension to our friendship where we can discuss these books, you know?

Kaneem Smith:
I love that.

R. Alan Brooks:
So that's really dope. Yes. Anyway, em, I really appreciate you taking the time to talk to me. It was a wonderful conversation.

Kaneem Smith:
It was wonderful talking with you as well. It's an absolute pleasure. I enjoyed it very much.

R. Alan Brooks:
All right. Special thank you to today's guest, Kaneem Smith. Thanks to our listeners, please be sure to subscribe to How Art is Born, wherever you get your podcast for our episodes. And if you can leave a review, it really helps us out. Check out MCA Denver on YouTube and subscribe there too, for behind the scenes clips from today's episode.